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	<title>Comments on: 21 years after Tiananmen Square, will the Chinese middle class push for democracy?</title>
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	<description>Author, Consultant, and Expert on China&#039;s Middle Class</description>
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		<title>By: Hattie Roskelley</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-10803</link>
		<dc:creator>Hattie Roskelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-10803</guid>
		<description>You completed a few nice points there. I did a search on the topic and found mainly people will go along with with your ideas! Thank you and best regards!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You completed a few nice points there. I did a search on the topic and found mainly people will go along with with your ideas! Thank you and best regards!</p>
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		<title>By: Jean-Paul Gagnon</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-2643</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean-Paul Gagnon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Aug 2010 05:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It would be beneficial to us all if the author could provide a detailed conceptualisation of democracy. It&#039;s a highly complex term which needs great specificity when in use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be beneficial to us all if the author could provide a detailed conceptualisation of democracy. It&#8217;s a highly complex term which needs great specificity when in use.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-2034</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 19:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-2034</guid>
		<description>The assertions in this article are quite flawed.  First of all, the subject &quot;middle-class push for democracy&quot; doesn&#039;t make sense.  What middle-class think/ask for has no influence in china&#039;s current political system.  They are so small, and do not have any political power.

Secondly, the articles implies that middle class only exists in beijing and shanghai only.  How do you define middle class in small cities where nobody makes more than $2000 a year?

As far as I see, China&#039;s consolidation-of-wealth process is proceeding at an phenomenal speed.  The end result is, basically, where India is at right now.

Agreeing that democracy would solve all these troubles, there is no easy way for democracy to come to China.  Those who benefited from current political system will defend against any social reform.  The Chinese history has been repeating the same story too many times, so there is no surprise that the same will happen again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The assertions in this article are quite flawed.  First of all, the subject &#8220;middle-class push for democracy&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make sense.  What middle-class think/ask for has no influence in china&#8217;s current political system.  They are so small, and do not have any political power.</p>
<p>Secondly, the articles implies that middle class only exists in beijing and shanghai only.  How do you define middle class in small cities where nobody makes more than $2000 a year?</p>
<p>As far as I see, China&#8217;s consolidation-of-wealth process is proceeding at an phenomenal speed.  The end result is, basically, where India is at right now.</p>
<p>Agreeing that democracy would solve all these troubles, there is no easy way for democracy to come to China.  Those who benefited from current political system will defend against any social reform.  The Chinese history has been repeating the same story too many times, so there is no surprise that the same will happen again.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Lorem Ipsum :: Materias Grises &#187; Archivo &#187; China, o el fin de la mano de obra barata</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-2023</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Lorem Ipsum :: Materias Grises &#187; Archivo &#187; China, o el fin de la mano de obra barata</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-2023</guid>
		<description>[...] leáis anécdotas sobre urbanitas de clase media chinos diciendo que la democracia y liberalización no va con ellos, la cosa tiene bastante que ver con este conflicto [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] leáis anécdotas sobre urbanitas de clase media chinos diciendo que la democracia y liberalización no va con ellos, la cosa tiene bastante que ver con este conflicto [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-1991</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-1991</guid>
		<description>The nature of the Party is paternalism, order, stability and the predictable. In the eyes of the Party, democracy is none of these things and the Party thinks China has done well with out Western style democracy where state power and authority is subject to all manner of lobby groups, monied interest and special interest political pressure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The nature of the Party is paternalism, order, stability and the predictable. In the eyes of the Party, democracy is none of these things and the Party thinks China has done well with out Western style democracy where state power and authority is subject to all manner of lobby groups, monied interest and special interest political pressure.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Ku</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-1983</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Ku</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jun 2010 02:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-1983</guid>
		<description>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/04/MNSG1DQ1BL.DTL

Above is a recent article on the San Francisco Chronicle: &quot;Whites in state &#039;below the replacement level&#039;&quot;

Pay close attention to the comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/04/MNSG1DQ1BL.DTL" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/04/MNSG1DQ1BL.DTL</a></p>
<p>Above is a recent article on the San Francisco Chronicle: &#8220;Whites in state &#8216;below the replacement level&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>Pay close attention to the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Ku</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-1980</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Ku</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jun 2010 00:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-1980</guid>
		<description>Is democracy necessary for a country to prosper? The fundamental principles of democracy are still under debate. Every nation on the world prefers the wealthy over the poor when it comes to things like immigration policy. So why should a rich billionaire have the same political power(one vote per person) as a poor peasant who makes $1 a day? 

When you look at global politics, we saw in the past 20 years, 4-6 million central Africans die in various wars. The democratic Western nations ignored this because those Africans were seen as economically useless. But if a wealthy ally and trading partner of the US was under attack, for example, Japan, even a small number of deaths would&#039;ve resulted in America&#039;s military rushing to its defense. This provides another example of how the wealthy are seen as more important than the poor, which goes against basic democratic concepts.

And when you dig deep into American domestic politics, and see how racial elements come into play, democracy seems even less valid. For example, in almost every city where poorer blacks and Latinos vastly outnumber the richer whites in the area, the whites typically become increasingly anti-democratic and pro-capitalism (they become Republicans and Libertarians). Why? Because, richer people don&#039;t believe that poorer people (Democrats), simply because they outnumber them, are automatically in the right. 

By 2050, white Americans will have lost their majority status in the US population. Although they will be a minority, a huge concentration of wealth will remain in their hands. I believe we&#039;ll increasingly see that these whites will move further to the right-wing, and away from democratic concepts, because they will see democracy as a pathway to wealth redistribution. In other words, democracy itself will be seen as a form of socialism.

So I think it may benefit a growing Chinese middle class to push for more capitalism, and not for more democracy. More democracy will likely result in more agitation from the poor in China, and that will increase the taxes on the wealthy and middle class Chinese. But if more capitalism is brought about, then the middle class can cast off any burden their poor neighbors place on them, and compete in the global economy as individuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is democracy necessary for a country to prosper? The fundamental principles of democracy are still under debate. Every nation on the world prefers the wealthy over the poor when it comes to things like immigration policy. So why should a rich billionaire have the same political power(one vote per person) as a poor peasant who makes $1 a day? </p>
<p>When you look at global politics, we saw in the past 20 years, 4-6 million central Africans die in various wars. The democratic Western nations ignored this because those Africans were seen as economically useless. But if a wealthy ally and trading partner of the US was under attack, for example, Japan, even a small number of deaths would&#8217;ve resulted in America&#8217;s military rushing to its defense. This provides another example of how the wealthy are seen as more important than the poor, which goes against basic democratic concepts.</p>
<p>And when you dig deep into American domestic politics, and see how racial elements come into play, democracy seems even less valid. For example, in almost every city where poorer blacks and Latinos vastly outnumber the richer whites in the area, the whites typically become increasingly anti-democratic and pro-capitalism (they become Republicans and Libertarians). Why? Because, richer people don&#8217;t believe that poorer people (Democrats), simply because they outnumber them, are automatically in the right. </p>
<p>By 2050, white Americans will have lost their majority status in the US population. Although they will be a minority, a huge concentration of wealth will remain in their hands. I believe we&#8217;ll increasingly see that these whites will move further to the right-wing, and away from democratic concepts, because they will see democracy as a pathway to wealth redistribution. In other words, democracy itself will be seen as a form of socialism.</p>
<p>So I think it may benefit a growing Chinese middle class to push for more capitalism, and not for more democracy. More democracy will likely result in more agitation from the poor in China, and that will increase the taxes on the wealthy and middle class Chinese. But if more capitalism is brought about, then the middle class can cast off any burden their poor neighbors place on them, and compete in the global economy as individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: Cisca Wikkeling</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-1979</link>
		<dc:creator>Cisca Wikkeling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-1979</guid>
		<description>Hi Helen,

Interesting article and thanks for allowing us to comment.

 I have been living in China for 9 years and it has been my observation that people in general are satisfied with the current system in the larger cities, which have seen tremendous economic growth and prosperity. 
When I speak to people from less well off areas in China there seems to be a larger degree of dissatisfaction about their inability to attain the same economic wealth and they seem to be more critical of the government.

As a person from Europe and America I am always surprised at how little interest the younger generation seems to have in their own rights. 
I lead a team of 30 Chinese people in their late teens and early twenties. They appear to be very spoiled and self centered and don&#039;t seem to care much about the world outside of their own environment. 

As you know the education system does not support critical thinking.

While I know that 30 people is not a great representation of the Chinese population in general, I hear that this is the situation from others who are involved with the younger generation. 

If the younger generation does not have an interest in pushing for a democracy then who will? Certainly not the people who have benefited from the current political situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Helen,</p>
<p>Interesting article and thanks for allowing us to comment.</p>
<p> I have been living in China for 9 years and it has been my observation that people in general are satisfied with the current system in the larger cities, which have seen tremendous economic growth and prosperity.<br />
When I speak to people from less well off areas in China there seems to be a larger degree of dissatisfaction about their inability to attain the same economic wealth and they seem to be more critical of the government.</p>
<p>As a person from Europe and America I am always surprised at how little interest the younger generation seems to have in their own rights.<br />
I lead a team of 30 Chinese people in their late teens and early twenties. They appear to be very spoiled and self centered and don&#8217;t seem to care much about the world outside of their own environment. </p>
<p>As you know the education system does not support critical thinking.</p>
<p>While I know that 30 people is not a great representation of the Chinese population in general, I hear that this is the situation from others who are involved with the younger generation. </p>
<p>If the younger generation does not have an interest in pushing for a democracy then who will? Certainly not the people who have benefited from the current political situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Alvin Jones</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-1970</link>
		<dc:creator>Alvin Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jun 2010 21:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-1970</guid>
		<description>Most people do not understand what democracy is or how it comes about. Most speak about countries adopting democracy as the way to peace and prosperity when the trend has always been the other way around. 

Only after a group of people has reached a certain degree of prosperity and stability will they want or eveb be able to handle a democracy.

Furthermore, democracy is by no means the perfect form of government. While many voices leads to discussion which is good, too many voices lead to confusion and waste. 

The Chinese, like all people, want and will continue to want more and more rights. But they may never want the confusing and evolving brand of &quot;democracy&quot; that is overtaking the west.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most people do not understand what democracy is or how it comes about. Most speak about countries adopting democracy as the way to peace and prosperity when the trend has always been the other way around. </p>
<p>Only after a group of people has reached a certain degree of prosperity and stability will they want or eveb be able to handle a democracy.</p>
<p>Furthermore, democracy is by no means the perfect form of government. While many voices leads to discussion which is good, too many voices lead to confusion and waste. </p>
<p>The Chinese, like all people, want and will continue to want more and more rights. But they may never want the confusing and evolving brand of &#8220;democracy&#8221; that is overtaking the west.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://helenhwang.net/2010/06/will-a-growing-chinese-middle-class-push-for-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-1965</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jun 2010 06:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://helenhwang.net/?p=1093#comment-1965</guid>
		<description>Helen - great piece. I think that when westerners make pronouncements about democracy either in totalitarian states like China or theocracies like Iran, they fall into the trap that some historians do when they judge past societies. They take the socioeconomic and political frame of reference they are used to and try to shoehorn their subject into it. Then, when it proves to be a less-than-perfect fit, they criticise the foreign state instead of their own limited perspective. The clue is in the word &quot;foreign&quot;!

Of course Tiananman was an outrage and the world&#039;s condemnation was justified and probably contributed by degree to the liberalisation of recent times. But to be so arrogant as some commentators are as to conclude that a Western-style democracy might have averted the problem to begin with is wilfully to ignore abuses from Watergate to Waco. In the UK, too, we are more than capable of subverting our own democracy as , Bloody Sunday, the WMD debacle and the current Parliamentary expenses scandal all remind us.

When I see the socioeconomic progress China has made in the past decade and phenomenal advances in education at every level, I am less inclined to preach and more prone to listen and learn. Economic success is the key driver for economic reform whether in 21st century Chaina or 19th century Britain but it doesn&#039;t follow that every evolving governance model needs to ape Westminster or Capitol Hill. China&#039;s system will liberalise but as long as a single-party system delivers strong growth and greater tolerance of difference, then who would blame the Chinese for only raising two cheers for western ideals of democracy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helen &#8211; great piece. I think that when westerners make pronouncements about democracy either in totalitarian states like China or theocracies like Iran, they fall into the trap that some historians do when they judge past societies. They take the socioeconomic and political frame of reference they are used to and try to shoehorn their subject into it. Then, when it proves to be a less-than-perfect fit, they criticise the foreign state instead of their own limited perspective. The clue is in the word &#8220;foreign&#8221;!</p>
<p>Of course Tiananman was an outrage and the world&#8217;s condemnation was justified and probably contributed by degree to the liberalisation of recent times. But to be so arrogant as some commentators are as to conclude that a Western-style democracy might have averted the problem to begin with is wilfully to ignore abuses from Watergate to Waco. In the UK, too, we are more than capable of subverting our own democracy as , Bloody Sunday, the WMD debacle and the current Parliamentary expenses scandal all remind us.</p>
<p>When I see the socioeconomic progress China has made in the past decade and phenomenal advances in education at every level, I am less inclined to preach and more prone to listen and learn. Economic success is the key driver for economic reform whether in 21st century Chaina or 19th century Britain but it doesn&#8217;t follow that every evolving governance model needs to ape Westminster or Capitol Hill. China&#8217;s system will liberalise but as long as a single-party system delivers strong growth and greater tolerance of difference, then who would blame the Chinese for only raising two cheers for western ideals of democracy?</p>
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